Paul Chowdhry: PC’s World

Star rating: *****
Assembly George Square Studios One. Venue 17
Edinburgh Fringe
Show Review Date: Monday 4th August 2014

The show runs from 30th July – 10th August 2014, then tours the UK

Paul Chowdhry was on cracking form as he tackled the PC world we live in today.

Race, class and sexism were all humorously covered during his show. He engaged superbly with his audience, ribbing the couple centre stage in the front row and many other attendees who were caught in his sights. One man had travelled for 8 hours on a coach all the way from  Northampton to see him. PC decided he’d better make it worth his while. He certainly did and had the audiences in stitches with his material, off the cuff asides directed at attendees, late comers and those nipping out for comfort breaks.

Paul Chowdhry is an extremely funny, quick witted and engaging comedian who commanded his audience’s rapt attention throughout his entertaining show. There were enjoyable asides re his experiences filming TV shows such as ‘Live at The Apollo’ interspersed with some very funny jokes on racial politics, relationships, religion and sex. Nothing was too sacred to be tackled by Paul Chowdhry.

gaymarriage

Proceedings got surprisingly edgy when he asked if anyone was against gay marriage. As was he. One lone voice piped up to agree. Well, you could feel the tension. It was as if he’d asked if anyone supported paedophelia. The gentleman explained his belief being based on this being against Christianity and the teachings of the bible.

Leviticus 18:22 – Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 – If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

marriage

He went on to deliver an un-expected and very funny punchline to this material.  Considering that around 95% + of the audience were probably heterosexual it was somewhat surprising, doubtless due to politically correctness, that more were not  vocal in advocating this view. I guess it was a clear sign, if ever one were needed, that we do live in a PC world. Thank God for people like Paul Chowdhry who are unafraid to share their honest, if not politically correct, views out there.

© Tiemo Talk of the Town

If you attended the show, we’d love to read your views. Feel free to post them on our blog.

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66 Responses to Paul Chowdhry: PC’s World

  1. Pingback: Top Ten Best Shows at the Edinburgh Fringe 2014 | tiemotalkofthetown

  2. Tiemo Talk says:

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  3. Tiemo Talk says:

    Proceedings got a little edgy when Paul Chowdhry asked if anyone was against gay marriage. One lone voice piped up to agree. Well, you could feel the tension. It was as if he’d asked if anyone supported paedophelia. The gentleman explained his belief being based on this being against christianity and the teachings of the bible.

    Going by the gender split and number of couples in the audience, it was most likely a predominantly heterosexual attendance so why do you think there was so little support for Paul Chowdhry’s view?

  4. Paul Sinha says:

    I’m not in the habit of replying to blogs, but since you asked politely I will. The main thing that concerns me about this review is your quoting of Leviticus calling for the death penalty for gays. It is not made clear whether this was something the punter said, or whether this is your inclusion. Either way I find it astonishing that you are expressing surprise that a Fringe audience might not share these views. The Edinburgh Fringe certainly embraces comedians with a wide variety of viewpoints , and long may that continue. It has also been a festival which is supportive of gay acts, and that is reflected in the audiences’ attitudes.

    It is a myth that supporting gay marriage makes you “PC”. It is an attitude currently shared by the majority of people in Britain, as every single poll for a number of years has shown. That figure will of course rise in a liberal arts festival. I am also confused by your attempt to equate being heterosexual and being against gay marriage. Perhaps my heterosexual friends are lying to me about their views , or perhaps they are secretly gay. I also wonder at what level you enjoyed Stephen K Amos’ show. Incidentally, I’ve done six full length shows at Edinburgh and would but the proportion of the audience who were heterosexual as at least 80-90 %. They seem to have coped somehow.

    But it is the Leviticus thing really. You have been at the Edinburgh Fringe. It is a celebration of modern comedy in all its forms. Why on earth would you be surprised that audiences in general dont give two figs about selectively and hypocritically quoting ancient texts to justify murder?

    • Tiemo Talk says:

      @Paul – Thank you for taking the time to reply.

      Re Leviticus. No, the punter didn’t quote that. It’s a quote from the bible. We were extremely surprised at the gross hypocrisy and cowardice of a majority heterosexual audience that did not speak out against gay marriage. You suggest 80-90% of Fringe goers are heterosexual. We agree with you. Therefore it makes no logical sense whatsoever that they did not back Paul Chowdhry’s stance and just sat there quietly.

      We agree with you that Edinburgh Fringe audiences are probably supportive of gay acts. That doesn’t mean they are or have to be supportive of same sex marriage. That is not in God’s plan so why should they or would they be? It’s not even been legal in this country (until last year) or most countries around the whole world.
      What is the “attitude currently supported by the majority of people in Britain” you refer to? It’s unclear to us.

      Why are you confused by linking heterosexuals with being against gay marriage? It seems perfectly logical to me.

      Re Stephen K Amos. We have seen him many times (not this year). He frequently gets a ***** review from us as he’s an excellent Comedian.

      “But it is the Leviticus thing really. You have been at the Edinburgh Fringe. It is a celebration of modern comedy in all its forms. Why on earth would you be surprised that audiences in general dont give two figs about selectively and hypocritically quoting ancient texts to justify murder ?”

      Re the Leviticus quotes. It’s not hypocritical (why do you say it is?) and is straight from the Bible. This is essentially God’s word, so if you disagree with that you’re disagreeing with God, not me, or some “punter at a comedy festival.” I am not suggesting people go out and murder gay people. I’m just quoting the bible to strongly back up a point made at the show.

      I note you didn’t reference a biblical quote to support gay marriage. That’s probably because there isn’t one, whatever Sir Elton John might think.

      There is a very good reason why God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

      • That’s all well and good, but God’s a none existent entity and is not real. You’re point is therefore invalid.

        🙂

      • Tiemo Talk says:

        Thank you for taking the time to comment but our point is certainly not invalid. Billions of people around the world totally disagree with the opinion you expressed.

      • Dennis Dennis says:

        I was just wondering why it is that so many anti-gay marriage people bring up Adam and Eve as the example of how things ‘should’ be. I’m no biblical expert, but as I recall from my days of RS, things went pretty badly for them after a promising start. Why would you choose the begetters of original sin as your ideal model for matrimony?

      • Tiemo Talk says:

        Dennis – Good point. As you state, arguably it’s precisely because of the ‘original sin’ caused by Eve eating the forbidden fruit (tricked into doing so by the devilish serpent) that got things of to an inauspicious start. However, the point is man and woman are designed to procreate and by so doing the world and population has grown. If things were not designed thus I guess few of us would be here today. Many would argue that the first man and woman, the initial family relationship was a prototype model for mankind and the family unit to develop from.

        I saw a play about this ‘The Creation of the World’ earlier this year which touched on this very theme of good v evil.

      • patrickgraham58 says:

        hard to believe this level of naivety –
        if you have read Leviticus this way (as God’s word) presumably you are also going to stone to death everyone who wears underwear, socks or has tattoos…

        and re the billions of people who believe (in contradictory Gods) – well, fortunately that is shrinking – unlike the number of flies that like cowshit…

  5. Halliburton says:

    Hello Mr Tiemo
    You are doing a very good job of proving why religion is a vile cancer on society. Tell your imaginary friend what a good job you’ve done. Then leave the rest of the world alone. Or go get counselling. Refuse to accept being the victim it’s made you into. Your choice.

    • Tiemo Talk says:

      Halliburton What evidence have you to support such graphic and gross condemnation of religion. Billions of people around the world benefit from, are comforted, supported and guided by their faith and religion. We’re not sure that faith deserves trampling all over.

      We would concur with you that so much evil, by nations at war,individuals and terrorists groups is carried out in the name of religion, but really is wicked and not based on good faith or pure religion.

      We do not consider ourselves victims. Could you please explain how you arrived at that conclusion?

  6. Ed Payne says:

    You said “I am not suggesting people go out and murder gay people. I’m just quoting the bible to strongly back up a point made”
    But your own quote from Leviticus states “both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death” If you think the bible is the word of God, and you should follow it, Isn’t that a contradiction?

    • Tiemo Talk says:

      Ed Payne. Good question. It may seem that way. How do you square the circle? Do you want people of faith to go out killing those who are committing what God defined as abominations? If one does that then one would arguably be guilty of the sin of murder … unless God indicated that was permissible. Hmmmm. Interesting.

      Thoughts people?

  7. Ewan Walker says:

    I am a Christian- more specifically a Catholic. I am also heterosexual. However, I support gay marriage and would never condemn someone for being gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc. Who am I to make judgements on someone’s way of life and personal feelings?

    I’ve been told before that makes me a bad (and on occasion not true) Christian. Sorry I don’t share your beliefs.

    • Tiemo Talk says:

      Ewan. Thanks. No need to personalise this at all for the beliefs expressed against gay marriage, gay relationships are those of God. In his almighty wisdom he has formed that judgement.

      Many would assert that you are therefore in a very good place if you agree with God so on that basis you are free to make a judgement.

      Paul Chowdhry’s show was about political correctness gone mad. We are not sure that being PC is always right. Is it in your view?

  8. Ed Payne says:

    Also, a question. Have you ever said anything nasty to your parents at all? If you have, then I’m sorry, you will have to go! A few verses earlier clearly state; If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.

    • Tiemo Talk says:

      Ed Payne – Thank you for your additional comment. That is really a distraction from the key focus on same sex marriage. This discussion isn’t really about a full analysis of the bible. If it was we’d need a lot more time.

  9. toby jones says:

    Hi

    I am in a happy heterosexual relationship. I have no problem whatsoever with gay marriage.

    Regards

    Toby Jones

    • Tiemo Talk says:

      Toby – We’re delighted to hear you are in a happy relationship. Long may that last. Should it not though, would you consider engaging in a gay relationship, one that may ultimately result in marriage or civil partnership?

  10. Simon says:

    Hi – It is ironic that you prove so well that there is genuinely no god. If there really was then he would put a stop nasty individuals reciting nonsense from a fictitious book about murdering people for what they do in the privacy of their bedroom.

    As Halliburton rightly said, religion is a vile cancer & I fear you are riddled with it. I hope you are not too embarrassed about what you have said when/if you see the light.

    Simon

  11. Pauline says:

    I am a Christian but do not accept same sex relationships or marriages and I am very proud of my beliefs and values which stem from my faith in God.

    As a society we state that everyone is entitled to their views, we like to pride ourselves on diplomacy and our focus on promoting equality and celebrating diversity…when it suits us.

    This lack of equality in freedom of speech is evident from the majority of these posts; having an opposing view is treated with hostility and contempt. It is only a view, which in turn provides an opportunity to share other perspectives, gain understanding and perhaps draw some conclusions without being disrespectful. In general, Christians (along with anyone else in society) can have a view underpinned by their faith. There is no need for anger etc as I (can only speak for myself) do not get angry with non Christians when they share their views which differ from mine.

    Whether it is accepted by the majority of readers or not, the bible describes homosexuality as abominable.

    • Simon says:

      Hi Pauline

      I fear the problem is that what really lies at the bottom of this is nothing more than simple bigoted homophobia. Religion just allows people to say what would be unacceptable in polite society because of your faith; or that is how you would like it. Once you accept there is no god then you see this nasty prejudice like any other. It is always presented as just an alternative view but it has massive ramifications for some people.

      What is like for a young gay person to grow up in a religious family, going to a church/mosque that is constantly telling that child that homosexuality is a sin and they will burn in hell. That is very real mental torture and akin to child abuse.

      Then look at the warped approach of the catholic church and its effect on children everywhere. Imagine, if you will, a young catholic boy being told over and over that his perfectly normal homosexual feelings are wrong and as a consequence he decides to bury his feelings once and for all by becoming a celibate priest. Years go by and those sexual urges become ever more pressing and he eventually gives in to the temptation of the young in his flock. I am not saying that repressed homosexual feelings leads to all child abuse in the catholic church but I would suggest it has been responsible for a fair bit.

      Religious people have so much to say about what we all do with our genitals but they seem so quite about much more pressing issues in the world. Indeed, is it important at all?

      If you want to believe in all that medieval nonsense then that is up to you but please do not impose it on the rest of us in the 21st century.

      Simon

      • Tiemo Talk says:

        Simon – Many would see your fears as just that fears. People in this debate have clearly stated their view stems from the bible and the word of God. In the context of this discussion it is not the case that people are using religion as a cover. Some people in the wider world may well be using religion as a cover. That’s a side issue from the stand point of a debate based upon people’s faith and the bible.

        This comment about what’s acceptable or not in polite society is interesting. If gay relationships are a sin according to God, then how can it be unacceptable to agree with that in polite society? In polite society they would say it’s a sin to steal or murder someone, so we suspect polite society will be saying much the same re gay marriage and relationships, which are also one of the big sins in the eyes of the Lord.

        Maybe you choose to throw out emotive words like homophobia to try and put people off debating and standing by the alternative to your view. It’s not working here.

        Your comments re catholic boys, whilst interesting are a diversion and a whole new topic. You throw in a line re “perfectly normal homosexual feelings”. How do you define normal in this context? We are not convinced that the majority population of people would agree with you that such feelings are normal as the majority of people gravitate naturally towards the opposite sex and look to enjoy healthy, heterosexual relationships.

        What if it was normal for a grown man of say 32 to have feelings for a youngster, say 8 years old? Add in that the feeling was mutual. Is it acceptable for those feelings be acted upon? By your logic anything goes that feels right and normal.

      • Simon says:

        Hello Tiemo Talk

        i’m afraid I go back to my original point. If something is wrong then it is plain wrong. Murder, stealing and paedophilia (I really hope you are not trying to introduce this as a direct correlation to gay relationships?) are wrong. And so is homophobia.

        You may have guessed that I am an atheist (big surprise) but the real surprise is that so are you and others on this blog. You do not believe in Allah, Zuess, Ganesh or any number of other gods invented by humans over thousands of years. The only difference between you and me is that I have gone that small step further and rejected the notion of all of them (come join me why don’t you and drop that last one).

        I presume, but I don’t know, that you are a Christian by virtue of your upbringing and your country of birth. If you had been born in a poor village in Afghanistan, what are the chances you would now be an equally convinced Muslim and rejecting the Christian notion of god; I would say that it would be pretty high. And I would suggest that you would now be arguing the Muslim case just as hard.

        All of this does not really matter to the rest of the world until we start to get things like Leviticus being quoted as the word of god and to be obeyed. I do believe people are entitled to believe what they want but when it impacts on wider society, or anybody else, then it must be stopped.

        Imagine if I started a religion (just like Joseph Smith, the convicted con man) started the Mormons (I still cannot comprehend how people are still falling for that one?!) and my religion says that anyone who is not white is the devil on earth and should be cast from these lands. Should my racist religion be tolerated? Of course not, it is just morally wrong. And it is no good you telling me my religion is wrong and should believe in your god because I have absolute faith in my racist god like you have faith in your homophobic god. The fact is homophobia and racism are both wrong and irrespective of the bible, the Torah, Koran and any number of other books, that are the ‘true’ word of various gods, this cannot be changed.

        I have no doubt that my words are falling on deaf ears because the real trick with religion is to make a virtue of Blind Faith. ‘I just believe’ no matter what the evidence (or more accurately the lack of it) and that makes me a better Christian. This reverse of logic, that you would never use in any other sphere of life, is perplexing to those of us on the other side and is the reason that church attendance is falling in the western world (apart from those daft Americans, although I think atheism is beginning to take hold there as well).

        Can you not simply accept that quoting Leviticus with the suggestion of killing gay people was wrong and you should not have done it? That is all this is really about…

        Simon

      • Tiemo Talk says:

        Simon – We agree wholeheartedly with you when you say “If something is wrong then it is plain wrong. Murder, stealing and paedophilia (I really hope you are not trying to introduce this as a direct correlation to gay relationships?) are wrong. And so is homophobia.”

        At it’s most basic homophobia is a “ dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.” No one has shown that here. Not Tiemo, not Pauline, Alison or others. All people have said is that they are not in favour of gay marriages. No one has said they dislike or are acting prejudicially against such people.

        No, we are not atheists and will not join you in rejecting Christianity. Silly request to make. Why would people do that based on what you’ve written?

        Going back to the point of murder, theft and paedophilia. We have no problem drawing that analogy. If you accept they are all sins we are in complete agreement. In the eyes of the Lord and those of many religions( probably all?) gay relationships are also sinful, so what makes you so proud to accept that sin, but not the others?

        Muslims are not big on gay marriages, theft, murder or paedophilia either as far as we’re aware so the point you’re making supports the widespread notion that sin is sin and sin is wrong. We are in agreement again. Nice one!

        All of this does not really matter to the rest of the world until we start to get things like Leviticus being quoted as the word of god and to be obeyed. I do believe people are entitled to believe what they want but when it impacts on wider society, or anybody else, then it must be stopped.

        Agreed. Sin must be stopped when it impacts upon wider society.

        The fact is homophobia and racism are both wrong and irrespective of the bible, the Torah, Koran and any number of other books, that are the ‘true’ word of various gods, this cannot be changed.
        Agreed.

        Re church attendance falling being positive is utter nonsense. Have you considered the possibility there is a link between falling church attendance and the rise in sin, crime, sexual abuse, deviancy, all manner of sick crime in this country, never mind the rest of the world?

        Can you not simply accept that quoting Leviticus with the suggestion of killing gay people was wrong and you should not have done it? That is all this is really about…

        you must be joking. Absolutely not. You’ve allowed yourself to be sidetracked by that quote. All that proved is that God is against gay relationships and in that day arguably that was the penalty or at least the vivid imagery and consequence God wanted to be put out there to indicate just how much of a sin it was. Penalty by death is a pretty emphatic and unequivocal position set out by the almighty on that one.

        As Alison so eloquently put it nuts and bolts are designed go together, not nuts and nuts or bolts on bolts. Change that natural order and it’s a recipe for disaster. Some would say you must be nuts if you don’t understand that basic concept.

        People criticise the bible and say it’s now old hat or saying the truth is the truth is a weak argument. Nonsense. As even you have argued, sin is sin, so therefore, what was a sin back in the day is still a sin today.

    • Paul Sinha says:

      I don’t think it is intolerant to question why a Fringe reviewer is quoting a Biblical call to execute gay people in their review. It is a well documented fact that Leviticus contains numerous instructions which even the most committed Christian believes to be impractical in modern life. But Tiemo nonetheless clings on to the idea that everybody should live their lives by it. Who is the intolerant one ? Me for not wanting to be killed, or Tiemo for putting the idea out there? If you honestly believe it is me, then I pity you.

      • Paul Sinha says:

        By “You” I mean Pauline. Who doesn’t accept same sex relationships. And wonders why people might be offended.

      • Tiemo Talk says:

        Paul – Please could you give us a few examples of the numerous instructions of Leviticus which you feel people would find impractical?

        Many would argue that the bible is in a way the original, definitive and most authoratitive guide to living ever written. I daresay many will agree with you Paul in considering it an outdated book, but nonetheless it wasn’t written to be fashionable. Billions or people still accept that it’s core message, values and principles are timeless and worth adhering to, or at least trying to.

        We posit that there is much to be said for good old fashioned values and it’s worth considering whether the awful troubles of the world and the society we live in is down to the fact that too many have no regard for and have strayed way to far from the “good book”.

        Most people would not consider it wise to be intolerant of the word of God. Tiemo Talk of the Town did not put the word out there re what you (not us) summise as intoleration of gays. God did.

  12. Simon says:

    How about…

    Leviticus 25:44-45: Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

    What a “good book”, I was wondering how to deal with my slaves! Certainly not ‘fashionable’. But arguably a very ‘authoritative’ guide to living. After all Slavery is not at all ‘outdated’.

    I presume you are happy with the continuation of slavery in the same way on the same basis object to gay relationships? After all god has set out his thinking clearly in Leviticus…what a nice deity he is.

  13. Pauline says:

    For those of you who have commented on my response, thank you but I feel I need to reiterate my point… we can be respectful even if our points of view differ. My values and beliefs stem from the bible and I stand by them. You notice from my blogs that I do not state that I “pity” anyone for their views or try to use emotive language or ridicule.

    I speak from personal experience of having God do so many things in my life that I am thankful for. I trust his word and accept them. I can love others but will not condone all behaviors. If you are happy with who your are, what you do etc then just state your case in a way that promotes a more open discussion.

  14. Simon says:

    Pauline

    Surely you can understand that advocating murder because someone is gay is abhorrent? You may have attributed all sorts of events in your life to ‘your’ god but that does not mean that you can condone killing people as a result.

    Can you see the direct correlation between what you are saying and extreme Muslims in Iraq beheading journalists? That is their beliefs that they attribute to ‘their’ god and their special book (most of it from the old testemant as well). Should we respect their beliefs and let them get on with the barbaric killing?

    Religion demands respect from the wider population and expects non-religous people to accept your different viewpoint. The problem is that if something is wrong it is plain wrong – take my slavery example above. Can you defend slavery at all?

    Blind faith is just that: Blind. Please, open your eyes.

    Simon

  15. Alison says:

    I can not believe all the time wasted on “is there a God, isn’t there a God?!” Let’s take God out of this picture for a bit. Why are homosexuals so intent on shoving their sexuality down peoples throats? Why do we have to accept “homosexual” behaviour? Why isn’t there a campaign supporting heterosexual marriages? Why get rude about Adam and Eve? or Adam and Steve?

    Ok…lets talk about couples… a nut and bolt…. a nut needs a bolt to become an affective nut. We don’t buy a pack of nuts expecting them to fit together and hold ANYTHING together. They may look good or make beautiful decorations but its not designed just to look good it has a purpose. Or Key’s and Locks…a lock is useless without a key (unless it’s a combination lock which can be affective ON ITS OWN).

    A sandwich…two slices of bread…you still need at least butter to make those two slices of bread into a sandwich….but a slice of granary bread and a plain white slice still looks interesting and/or appetising than just two slices of the same bread but it still isn’t a sandwich. With that said I do feel sorry for children/adults confused about their sexuality and being told and taught conflicting things but let’s face it….most parents would love to have happy healthy children who will one day give them happy healthy grand children, so we try to preserve our families by encouraging boys to be boys and girls to be girls to one day get married and produce children to carry on the family line preferably through DNA. No one wants to set their child up for a lifetime of battling (to be accepted, to fit in, to get married, to have children) in truth we want peace for our children and love them regardless of our expectations.

    You’ve probably guessed that I am a Christian…a follower of the teaching of Jesus Christ. Well Jesus says to love. So I love. The homosexual, the heterosexual, the rude, crude, immoral and the sinner. I love the person as God(Jesus) requires of me, not the sin they commit. To act on immoral/sinful feelings is the sin. To struggle with immoral feelings is to be commended. There are many gay men and women in the church and out of it who struggle with their sexuality…why? Because deep down they know that feeling is wrong…or not right so they fight…fight to make it acceptable, fight to make it normal, fight to make it right and sometimes fight to make it go away. No matter how much we fight, argue, curse and fuss, right is right…wrong is wrong.

    Now let’s reintroduce God as our Heavenly Father…regardless of if you believe it or not….Your Heavenly Father loves you, accepts you and has made you. Homosexual/Heterosexual alike. He loves the person and the spirit of you, not the sin and the devil in you…and we all have the devil in us…if we listen to the devil in us things may seem to be going great but trust me your spirit is grieving. Acting on homosexual urges is a sin…to GOD ….not to man…man/woman have no right to judge.

    At the end of the day (when we kick our own buckets and shuffle off this mortal coil) WE stand before God alone. NOT with your husband, wife, son, daughter, dog or cat…ALONE. So with that said…Paul – modern or not the Bible is packed with provoking teachings which is good for the soul for the “modern” man/woman YOU would be better served studying them rather than misquoting them… and try reading it without judgement or criticism.

    Simon – Homosexuals such as yourself come under the same umbrella as those “Religious” people you speak of….shoving your opinion in peoples faces and being hostile with it.

    Pauline – the TRUTH is the truth. God bless you for standing in the line of fire alongside Tiemotalk.

    Halliburton – You just need Jesus!

    Love, Peace and God Bless x

    • Simon says:

      Alison

      “A bolt needs a hole” – really, is that the extent of your argument? What about Velcro? Joke….

      Not one Christian here wants to discuss the actual facts that we are debating: advocating the killing of gay people. No one will answer the ‘word of god’ on slavery either.

      I am sorry that you feel I am shoving my opinion but isn’t that the point of a discussion. You have given you opinion “the truth is the truth” (not much of an argument and completely unprovable) but presumably I am not allowed because religious views are to be respected despite what they are saying? As I have said before, if something is morally wrong then we should never accept it.

      I also find it rich that I am being accused of being hostile when I challenge your beliefs. You are defending MURDER! I have not mentioned killing anyone.

      What makes you think I am homosexual? You seem to be so blinded by your own dogma that you fail to see anything. I am a happily married man with a wife & 2 daughters. However, like most of the audience I have an extreme aversion to any prejudice particularly when it is backed up by unthinking ‘believers’ and fictional books.

      Some 7 years ago my wife needed to have a hysterectomy, so she no longer has a ‘purpose’ within your above nut/bolt & key/lock definition. Does that mean our sex life must now be abandoned because there is no longer the chance of procreation. No, we still love each other and want to be together. Why can that not be the case for 2 men & 2 women, so long as they want to be together. Who does it harm?

      Can I suggest you test your faith properly by reading something like ‘The God Delusiion’ by Richard Dawkins or ‘God is not Great’ by Christopher Hitchens to fully appreciate the weight of the argument against what your saying.

      Peace, love & no killings please.

      Simon

      • Tiemo Talk says:

        Simon – The debate was never really about slavery, analysing the bible or killing gay people. You are missing the point if you think this what this is about.

        It was simply about whether or not people support gay marriage. Many people don’t, be that for reasons based on their Christian beliefs or other factors. If you believe that actions speak louder than words, you would probably have to agree that most of the world is against the practice of homosexuality for most people engage in or seek to engage in heterosexual relationships.

        “As I have said before, if something is morally wrong then we should never accept it.”
        So by that statement you are now agreeing with those saying gay marriage is wrong. It’s refreshing to see someone bold enough and mature enough to reflect and change their mind mid-debate.

  16. Paul Sinha says:

    It is incredible that you could advocate reducing the civil rights of people just because a particular ancient text says so, to defend passages which call for the death of said people, and then have the delusional hypocrisy to end with the words “Love, Peace and God Bless”. And yet gay people who simply want equal rights and the right not to be killed by the religious are the aggressive ones. It might pay to look at history and check out the crimesheet for homophobes and gay people. And then perhaps reassess who are the aggressive ones.

  17. Paul Sinha says:

    And the answer to the original question – why are Fringe audiences broadly pro gay rights – is because in general they are intelligent people , prepared to use life experiences to shape and then reshape their understanding of the world , rather than stop thinking and let a book do all the work for them.

    • Tiemo Talk says:

      Paul – Big statement. Have you any evidence to say Fringe audiences are broadly gay rights? Even supposing they were, are you therefore saying that the typical Fringe audience represents the great British majority opinion? We’re not sure about that.

      To then dismiss Christians as non thinking, unintelligent sheep is we think a step to far. It’s a patronising over generalisation with no substantive basis behind it.

  18. Here’s Martin Sheen running through all the other bits of Leviticus that good Christians cheerfully choose to ignore.

  19. patrickgraham58 says:

    hard to believe anyone is dumb enough to quote Leviticus as God’s word these days – especially whilst remaining clothed in socks and underwear – a sin for which God apparently prescribes the same punishment (stoned to death)

    Selectivity of OT quotes is a minefield all sensible Christians long ago cottoned on to – you have to be supremely and deliberately naive to read it as god’s commandments for modern times

  20. I consider myself a Christian and see a clear difference between the teachings of Jesus, which are mainly inclusive, and those of Leviticus and the Old Testament generally which are not. All fundamentalist beliefs can be divisive and cause wars and genocide, something I have never heard gay people accused of. I am with Paul on this – and he is funny as well!

  21. Michael says:

    If you’re going to quote biblical text as law, I would like some guidance on other examples of the word of God.
    I am interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She’s a History graduate, speaks fluent Italian, always cleaned the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?

    My neighbour! Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it better to call the police?

    Touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7 If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins stil play football?

    Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side?
    Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?
    If you have no answers perhaps you might like to ask why you choose just one piece of God’s Holy Law to support your prejudices.

  22. Tiemo Talk says:

    Thank you all for your comments on what has seemlessly moved on from a standard comedy review into a full on heated debate between those who are pro-marriage and anti-gay marriage or Christian v non-believers.

    This is now by far our biggest ever blog discussion in 3 years of blogging, so we thank you all for reading and contributing to this very interesting topic.

    The Tiemo Talk of the Town Blog forum is designed to stimulate debate and it’s certainly doing that with this topic. If you have the time, you are invited to read and contribute to our other Blogs as we’ve covered a wide range of topics spanning areas such as comedy, politics, health (physical and mental), restaurants, films, television and sport over the last few years of blogging.

    If you would like to follow this and future Blogs you can sign up for free to receive automatic updates at the top right of this Blog.

    Passion is clearly running very high on this one, with no-one risking splinters by sitting on the fence! It’s abundantly clear that people are completely divided for or against and there may not even be a lot of respect for opposing OPINIONS, however we do hope the discussion can at least continue with people maintaining a respectful tone towards one another as individuals with differing views and beliefs.

    Tiemo Talk of the Town
    Stimulating Debate. Serious. Topical. Humorous

  23. Alison says:

    I’m rubbing my eyes…after re reading my comment and yes Paul you are right I did not answer the question posed. Killing anyone is wrong. Killing someone because of their sexuality is also wrong. Murder is wrong! I love homosexuals, I love heterosexuals in fact I love.

    Murder/Killing is not right in any sense of the word. Yet with that said I still do not agree with gay marriage, I understand the definition of marriage to be: a noun – the formal union of a man and a woman, typically as recognized by law, by which they become husband and wife.

    I have no problem with same sex couples entering into a civil partnership but trying to redefine the meaning of marriage is ludicrous. As I have said before…the law I adhere to is God’s law. He is my judge and jury and I believe he has covered all the bases for living in harmony in this world.

    Now to answer your slavery question – in those days slaves were not treated as animals in fact the poor who managed to find a “slave master” were grateful for the food, shelter,work and wage they were given.

    A “slave” chose to be a slave. Parents gave their children to rich land owners out of love and care for them. Slavery was not as we know it now and back when they were kidnapping people and taking them from their homes and families. God outlined rules to protect what he had created.

    I am sorry to hear about your wife’s medical issue Simon and no that does not make her purposeless. Nor does it make a woman not a woman if she can not have children at all. I am simply pointing out the fact that a woman is a woman with female organs and a man is a man with male organs…male and female… different. So even if a man changes his outwardly appearance his organs will always be male. He may feel better looking at himself and feel his outward appearance matches his feelings but his organs and origins will always be male….and the same for females.

    I’m happy for whoever wishes to dress like a woman/man to do whatever makes them feel good but lets remember not everything that feels good is good for us.

    For those of us who believe in a God that loves us and wants to protect us and shield us from anything that may harm or hurt us, we chose to obey his word and stick to his rules regardless of what others say. We may or may not be right in what we believe but if we are we will be happy if we’re wrong we will be dead. Either way we would have tried to live well with others and stick to a principle of peace God has laid down.

    I do not wish to cause offence nor do I wish to provoke a row. I’m just simply saying MOST people don’t care about what others do or care what people think they are quite happy to go with the flow but when we take away the frills Marriage is marriage as defined above…not by me.

  24. Simon says:

    HI

    You said – “At it’s most basic homophobia is a “ dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.” No one has shown that here. Not Tiemo, not Pauline, Alison or others. All people have said is that they are not in favour of gay marriages. No one has said they dislike or are acting prejudicially against such people.”

    But you quoted Leviticus, which commands the killing of gays. Several of you have also said that the bible is the ‘word of god’. You now seem to be saying that this is not the word of god? Or when it was written it was okay to kill people for being gay, so god has changed his mind? To be honest, I am not sure what you are saying. It is very difficult to debate something when so many of you keep using linguistic gymnastics that Gerry Adams would be proud of.

    “No, we are not atheists and will not join you in rejecting Christianity. Silly request to make. Why would people do that based on what you’ve written?” – Of course you will not but can you not see the point I am making about you already rejecting 99% of all other religions past and present? Atheism is no more than non-belief in supernatural beings/entities and in that respect you ARE an atheist for all the other religions. The offer is still there… 😉

    “Re church attendance falling being positive is utter nonsense. Have you considered the possibility there is a link between falling church attendance and the rise in sin, crime, sexual abuse, deviancy, all manner of sick crime in this country, never mind the rest of the world?”

    There is a saying in statistical world “Correlation is not causation”. The answer is a definite no. Massive drops in church attendance is caused by non-belief and rejection of your outdated ideology nothing more and nothing less.

    Crime levels are actually falling (fact) and the vast majority of the sexual abuse scandals date back to a time when the church had much greater grip on our society. Leaving aside the obvious ‘open goal’ of the vile catholic church and its continued refusal to hand over its files to authorities for its countless child abusing priests, the fact is society is becoming more and more open and those that have suffered in the past are feeling more free to come forward now about the abuse they have suffered. This is a good thing and something the church has stopped in the past.

    I do agree that there is rise of criminality and depravity in the world and that is religious based violence. Ever growing groups of radical believers imposing their version of their god on all those around them. And whilst I would accept that Christianity is not so involved now, it bears responsibility for the deep scars in that region in years gone by (presumably on your gods watch?). At a local level our society is safer but at a global, macro, level then it is more dangerous and that is I am afraid largely down to religion.

    I will leave ‘sin’ and ‘deviancy’ alone as these are your made up concepts. Some christian based religions believe it is a ‘sin’ to cut your hair (Plymouth Brethren?) and I think that probably says it all!

    “People criticise the bible and say it’s now old hat or saying the truth is the truth is a weak argument. Nonsense.”

    Why is it nonsense? That is just your indoctrinated opinion? This sentence alone clearly highlights the difficulty I have with discussing this issue with you. I have given reason and facts; you asked Paul for evidence of other Leviticus quotes ‘that were impractical” and when I gave the slavery example you say “the debate was never about slavery”. It is like trying to pick up a snake with a pair of chop sticks: the basis of the discussion just keeps being changed and moved to avoid points made and difficult questions to answer. As you wriggle this way and that to try and make you god and book fit, the validity of your belief system gets weaker and weaker.

    One final thought I have is on marriage which religious people seem to think is their preserve. The concept of marriage was around a good deal longer than christianity. It is interesting that you are happy for civil partnerships but gay marriage is a no. Just because the church took over marriage in this country many centuries ago does not mean that you can continue dictate who can get married.

    Simon

  25. Tiemo Talk says:

    Jenny – We’re very surprised. Your initial comments said you consider yourself a Christian yet you now seem to support gay marriage. The two appear to be incompatible. I don’t think anywhere in the bible, new or old testament supports gay relationships – they are defined as abominations and sexually immoral so we’re curious how you arrived at that conclusion?

  26. Tiemo Talk says:

    Alison – Thank you for your clear, vivid, forthright and considered arguments which have contributed greatly to establishing clarity and greater understanding in this debate.

    • Simon says:

      Yes, thank you Alison. Although a few logical reasons and facts might not go a miss. 😉

      Timeo Talk – have you ever heard of confirmation bias?

      S

      • Simon says:

        On reflection, I withdraw my thanks to Alison, having re-read her post. I fear her words are actually a lot more sinister than they first looked.

        “There are many gay men and women in the church and out of it who struggle with their sexuality…why? Because deep down they know that feeling is wrong…or not right so they fight…fight to make it acceptable, fight to make it normal, fight to make it right and sometimes fight to make it go away. No matter how much we fight, argue, curse and fuss, right is right…wrong is wrong.”

        This is exact thing that scares me so much about all this homophobia. The reason they ‘struggle’ so much is because they are part of a religion that has an unnatural, and unhealthy, attitude to sex and sexuality. You attitude, Alison, and what you say specifically causes these people very real pain as they try to reconcile their perfectly NATURAL homosexuals feelings with a nasty doctrine that seeks to simply vilify those who are different. You have their pain, discomfort and mental anguish on your conscious and you should be genuinely ashamed.

        Can I ask what happens, within your simplistic dogma, with people whose gender denomination is less defined? It is a medical fact that some people are born this way (known as Intersex where a person is born with both make and female sexual organs). How does your gender specific sexuality rules cope then? This is a genuine question (one for Tiemo Talk to obviscate and avoid answering).

        “Or Key’s and Locks…a lock is useless without a key (unless it’s a combination lock which can be affective ON ITS OWN).”

        Your metaphor here is very simplistic but the last part ‘ON ITS OWN’ (in capitals to emphasise the point) seems to be instructing homosexuals to deny their feelings towards other human beings and stick to masterbation for the rest of their lives? I have mentioned previously the vile evil that enforced celibacy can bring about and now you want to deny homosexuals a loving sexual relationship. How would it be if my made up religion bans all ‘Alisons’ from having loving sexual relationship – would that be fair and morally just? Why would you do that to your fellow human beings when you profess love to all?

        “if we listen to the devil in us things may seem to be going great but trust me your spirit is grieving. ”

        I don’t trust you – not one bit! Quite simply, how do you know; really know? Why is my spirit grieving? Why would your creator make people homosexual, with perfectly normal sexual urges and then punish them for it? Is he some kind sado-masochist who likes watching his creations suffer on earth for his entertainment? This is the nasty god of the old testament ‘Yahweh’ whose narcissistic vile temper leads to the suffering and punishment of so many in your ‘good book’.

        Admit it Alison you do not know the mind of your god (how could you?) Firstly, because you are a mere human being and secondly because he is not true.

        The real truth is we are all just primates that have created countless gods over the centuries to serve our own purposes. The problem is some of these primates (Alison, Pauline & Tiemo Talk) want to impose their version of life on other primates and that leads to very real and direct suffering of others (mainly women and children!)

        As Christopher Hitchens puts it ‘Religion poisons everything’ and, Alison, it is your poison that I am trying to stop.

        Simon

  27. Pauline says:

    This is not particularly addressed to Simon but he may find it of interest as I hope it provides clarity on some of the points he has raised in his blogs.

    When I read the initial quotes from Leviticus, I did not assume that it meant that people in this day and age should be killed because of behaviours that went against God’s teaching. Most Christians would be aware that these are old laws. As a result of Jesus giving his life as the ultimate sacrifice, there is no longer a need for consequences such as those mentioned in the old testament. I understood the reference to the Bible was to illustrate that homosexuality was a sin.

    “Sexual Immorality” (as described in the Bible) does not only appear in the old testament. Just like any other sin (again according to the Bible) there are consequences for all of us if we continue in sin.The Bible states that we have all fallen “short of the Glory of God” (Romans 3 vs 23). So to be clear (and as one person stated) we should love each other but not the sins that we commit. Therefore I can love anyone but do not have to accept what they do.

    By the way following a religion is mentioned a great deal in these blogs, but in my view religion as such describes a dogmatic approach which I do not subscribe to. I believe in spirituality and as a Christian try to be guided by God and not dogma. Prayer, devotion and reading of the Bible help me to understand who I am and my purpose.

    If I do not respond to any other comments, it is not that I am being disrespectful it is just that I have decided that this is my final input. It has being interesting and informative.

    Father of Light is a video documentary about God’s impact on people lives today if anyone is interested.

  28. Tiemo Talk says:

    @Pauline – Thank you for your comments. I will watch the video link.

    This whole debate and our recent comments suggested that a lot of the problems in society stem from the breakdown on the family unit for non-traditional family units.

    This point is made in today’s Observer by Managing director of the World Families Congress, Larry Jacobs, who says ‘affirmation of marriage’ would solve poverty.

    The breakdown of the family unit is responsible for 90% of the world’s poverty, the head of the World Congress of Families told its conference. Wrapping up the controversial and chao…

    • Simon says:

      Thanks Tiemo Talk – a great link. Did you look up the concept of confirmation bias? I think you may be at it again?

      Nothing really a surprise there except just more regurgitation of the same dogmatic views to try and make your religion fit. One sentence that has caught my eye though:

      “Without God they get filled with pornography or terror or computer games.”

      Interesting my daughters have not been poisoned by religion (although, I have not stopped them from going to church from time to time with a religious relative). I have encouraged them both, as every parent should do, to question asses and reach your own conclusions. They have both variously pronounced belief in god and non-belief in god at stages of their life but in both cases they can see the nonsense of it all by the time they became teenagers.

      Was their lives filled with pornography, terror or computer games? Computer games a bit: we have had a great fun family evening on the Wii (not sure why computer games are a problem?) Terror no and pornography no. We have lots of holidays and visit interesting places around the world, go on walks, surfing, fishing, horse riding, swimming, dancing, etc. We seem to manage fine without the interference of a god or any of his earthly peadophile priests (no mention of that in Larry Jacob’s speech, I notice?)

      The bit that made me laugh, a lot, is that you send a link to an obvious crackpot in the form of Angela Lanfranchi. The article ends with…

      ‘Hundreds of the world’s leading doctors, scientists and researchers who reviewed all the studies on the relationship between pregnancy and breast cancer have found abortions and miscarriages do not increase a woman’s breast cancer risk.’

      Do you read that hundreds (i’ll repeat it for you!) HUNDREDS! One crazy religious nut job so wharped by the her indoctrination that she will literally spout any nonsense she can to try and SCARE people into following her distorted view of the world. Utterly discredited by hundreds of her peers. She is the epitome of evilness in the church.

      And this on a link you have sent to me??

      Simon

  29. Tiemo Talk says:

    @Simon – I’m sure others will respond if they wish to.

    For our part we emphasize again, as many others have done, homosexuality is a sin. A very big sin, as is theft, murder, pedophilia. We understand natural urges. They’re only human. To sin is to be human. However is not man’s struggle to not give in to sin, but to try and overcome natural urges and resist sinning? Should not the grown man/woman resist their natural urges for sexual relations with minors? Should the thief not resist their natural urges to steal?

    We don’t believe Alison was being homophobic. She clearly stated she can love everyone, including homosexuals, but not the sin.

    Re intersex people. This is not something we are overly familiar with, however if someone is of that determination, then would not same sex relationships be impossible as they are dual gender?!!

    • Simon says:

      Tiemo Talk.

      As I have said before ‘sin’ is a made up concept. Different religions decide what is sin or not (e.g. the daft hair cutting thing or Muslim & Jews not eating pork).

      You cannot impose your view of the world on others. The rest of the world works on morals (not sin) and decides through considered thought what is moral or not. We think about these things whereas all you do is look at an ancient book to be told what your morals are. This is by definition immoral and, frankly, stupid. Please try and think for yourself.

      So the question is whether homosexuality is morally wrong and the answer for the vast majority of people is no (that is why the audience did not support the notion at the show). Unthinking Christians are literally trapped by their own dogma and all you can say is ‘but it is a sin, my book says so’. You have no substance to your argument whatsoever other than your daft, discredited book.

      I am also getting more concerned with your repeated attempts at correlating homosexuality with paedophilia. Is this another inflammatory way to try and whip up hatred of homosexuals.

      Can I ask you straight – do you see homosexuality as morally bad as peadophilia?

      Simon

  30. Simon says:

    Hi Tiemo Talk

    Your silence speaks for itself. Your medieval thinking has been challenged and found wanting (and immoral). I hope you will see the light soon.

    I will leave you all alone now. It has been fun pulling at all the loose threads of your argument and seeing things fall apart so quickly.

    Best wishes to all.

    Simon

  31. Tiemo Talk says:

    Happy New Year,

    Greetings Simon – As I have an announcement to make shortly re this thread, I have just revisited some unanswered questions you posed and slightly edited the last paragraph of the review.

    Apologies for the delay but I thought we had all said what needed to be said, but for clarity will address some of the key outstanding questions you had.

    Many do not consider sin to be a made up concept. Many will see it as a concept deeply rooted in the Bible and is applicable and seriously relevant today as it was 2,000 years ago, both morally, spiritually and legally. Last time I checked it was still a crime to murder someone (though I might make an exception where you are concerned. Jokes – it’s good debating with you)!

    I am not imposing my views or morals on the world. God did. Whether or not you believe in God is entirely up to you or anyone else, but it doesn’t change anything.

    “So the question is whether homosexuality is morally wrong and the answer for the vast majority of people is no (that is why the audience did not support the notion at the show).”

    Many people would utterly disagree with your assertion Simon. The aim of Paul Chowdhry’s show was to point out how we live in a politically correct country and PC times. Politically correct does not make someone or something morally or spiritually correct. As I’ve pointed out at the end of my slightly edited review today, the audience were being PC and disingenuous by not voicing sentiments against gay marriage. How could they be for it, when most of them were clearly straight? It made no sense, was hypocritical and is just not consistent with how they live their heterosexual lives.

    Therefore I repeat, most people deep down believe and know it to be sinful and morally wrong. If not, surely they would be practising homosexuals themselves?

    “I am also getting more concerned with your repeated attempts at correlating homosexuality with paedophilia. Is this another inflammatory way to try and whip up hatred of homosexuals. Can I ask you straight – do you see homosexuality as morally bad as paedophilia?” Simon

    Many people would say it is not as bad. One is between consenting adults, the other is abuse of minors. Those same people would also say without a doubt that homosexuality is sinful and morally repugnant. That’s not my judgement. It’s God’s judgement and one billions of people agree with and live by.

    Simon – I have no problem with the Guardian article re the World Families Congress. It was simply highlighting the importance of the family unit to raising children. Not totally sure re the 90% poverty link in the UK, but it’s well known that children generally thrive better in two parent families and certainly a lot of crime can be traced back to criminals coming from broken homes. That’s an indisputable fact.

    “He was also troubled by the role of alcohol in sexual assaults. “The difficulty of prosecuting rape cases when the woman is drunk is difficult and distressing,” he said.

    I found that comment prescient in the light of the footballer (or should that be ex-Footballer) Ched Evans case. Whatever he protests re his innocence, the fact is the woman he was found guilty of raping was so inebriated she didn’t even know if she was raped or whether she consented.

    • Simon says:

      Hi Tiemo – Long time no hear! And Happy New Year.

      Like you I thought this one was done and whilst I know that I am unable to convince those blinded by faith (literally), and in reality I am really wasting my own time, I cannot resist the temptation to reply (perhaps your God created me with this affliction?)

      I also think it is ironic post Charlie Hebdoe and the genuinely horrific events with ISIS and Boko Haram that you wish to revisit some of your failed arguments.

      On a number of occasions you use the word ‘Many’. This is not quantified and even within the Christian community I would argue that the majority do not take your stance on homosexuality. Ironically, I agree with you that they are wrong in that if they believe the fictional nonsense in your particular brand of ‘special’ book they cannot be selective. Perhaps, you include in your ‘Many’ definition people of the Muslim faith – after all their religion is based on your same Abrahamic roots? We all know how vehemently ISIS impose their religious view on homosexuality.

      And that for me is the key issue. Religious people in and of themselves are no more than deluded individuals talking to their imaginary friend in the sky. If that is where it stopped then we could simply ignore their ramblings and get on with our lives but it is much, much more sinister than that and it starts with low level psychologic torment of religious homosexuals, continues with out and out homophobia (as you have displayed) and finally death at the hands of islamic fanatics. That is why I stood up and challenged you for what you were saying. Homophobia is wrong and no amount of fictional Gods (whatever flavour) can make it right.

      I am also intrigued by your inability to comprehend straight people supporting gay marriage. Why is this so hard to understand? Just because you don’t like something yourself why would you object to someone else liking it? I enjoy all fruit but I despise pineapple; detest it! However, I will buy it for my 2 daughters who both enjoy it. I certainly don’t try to impose my view on them or refuse to understand how they can like pineapple. I know you will think this is a trite comparison but it really is genuinely that simple. When it comes to sexuality we all have differing preferences. Who am I, or you, to say whether someone’s preference for dressing up, bondage, shoes, men, women or both is wrong? As long as it is between consenting adults then it makes no difference to anyone or any of their made up Gods.

      Tiemo – You need to understand that your starting point here is flawed. You assert that God exists and you know this for sure (I am not sure how you could really possibly know) and this prevents you from seeing beyond this point. As I say, you are literally blinded. I do not believe that you are a bad person but, like in so many cases, your religion has made you a bad person: it has made you into a Homophobe.

      At this point it is useful to paraphrase Christopher Hitchens who said:
      ‘I challenge you to name one good or noble thing which cannot be accomplished without religion.’
      He goes onto say:
      ‘I challenge you name something immoral that is only done in the name of religion’

      No one has ever come up with anything for the first statement but your head is full of ideas for the second before you even reach the end of the sentence. This is the true, undeniable, evil of organised religion.

      Tiemo – please stretch yourself by reading ‘The God Delusion’. If your faith is as strong as it seems to be then it will not do any harm. Read better articulated arguments than I can muster on this thread and if you reach the end and are not the least bit unsure of your position then we will have to abandon you to the countless thousands that have needed some form of deity to validate their existence in the world.

      Good luck

      Simon

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